Margaret Higgins discussed the experience of interacting with the song, The Hardest Part of Love, from the musical, Children of Eden
Interview Summary
The participant discussed their interaction with the song, “The Hardest Part of Love” from the musical, Children of Eden. They first interacted with this piece when their daughter was in a production of the play, in the same community theater that the participant once performed in. The song details how hard letting go of a loved one is, despite how necessary it is. The participant relates to this song as a child whose relationship with their parents has changed a lot throughout the years, as a parent of two children themself, as a pet owner, and as an academic advisor. In all of these roles, they have had to learn to “have intimacy with these people on a temporary basis, and then to accept the healthy and inevitable possibility of letting them go”. The song was particularly impactful for them when their son was in his senior year of college, struggling with a severe period of depression. The participant, whose brother died by suicide following a period of depression himself, worried about their son intensely, but found that their nagging only drew their son further from them. During this time, they reflected on the messages of the song: “at some point, children are going to do reckless things and have experiences that scare you, but that is what is supposed to happen; that is how children become adults”. Their relationship with their son has since improved, and they are able to communicate in a healthier way. Their daughter is also moving to a different country, and the participant is trying to be happy and supportive for her as she is “experiencing everything that they could have hoped in terms of her own independence and discovery of herself.”
The participant also reflected on their relationship with their parents. They never had a healthy relationship with their father, and had to set boundaries with him as an adult in order to live their life. Their relationship with their mother was always healthier, but as she has undergone dementia, her personality has changed a lot, and the participant has had to let go of their old relationship. The participant grieves for the losses, but acknowledges that they are a part of life. While the play is based on a Bible story, the participant’s connection to it has very little to do with the religious stories that inspired it. It helps them understand that they can’t protect their children from making poor decisions, or prevent their students from failing a class; all they can do is ask them questions and help them come to their own conclusions. The song resonates with their authentic self because while loss is hard, it is normal and healthy, and it is not realistic to expect things to stay the same, or be easy all the time.
Interview Transcript
Introduction
Interviewer: Okay, so we'd like you to focus on your interaction with a a particular artwork that someone else created. I I know that you've already chosen your artwork, so we'll be talking about that. And I just wanted to let you know before get into any of the questions that i'll be reading mostly from a script I do to the research methods. That's not that. You know we're not interested or engaged with what you're saying, but just due to the methods of the study. I I'll be reading from the script. I know that you have chosen your artwork.
Description
Interviewer: so you could you tell me what is it?
Participant: The artwork is a song from a musical and the title is The Hardest Part of Love. And so I do have for reference a Youtube video recording of it. it's something that I was exposed to maybe 15 years ago. Now that seems like a really long time, but it it probably was close to that. And it's just something that whenever I return to it. it makes me cry. It just really moves me emotionally every time that I hear it.
Interviewer: Great. Thank you so much. and would you? I know you said that you had the the clip. Would you mind sharing that?
Participant: Not at all. do you want me to send you the link or share my screen? I can do either one.
Interviewer: Could you actually sharing the screen, I think would be great, for now you also send me that.
Participant: Yes, I can let me just put it in the chat. Okay. Okay.
Song: “Oh, this son of mine I love so well / And ah, the toll it takes”
Interviewer: Thanks.
Song: “I’d give him a garden / and keep it clear of snakes / But the one thing he most treasures / Is to make his own mistakes. / He goes charging up the cliffs of life / A reckless mountaineer / I could help him not to stumble / I could warn him not what to fear / I could shout until I’m breathless / And he’d still refuse to hear. / But you cannot close the acorn / Once the oak begins to grow / And you cannot close your heart / To what it fears and needs to know: / That the hardest part of love / Is the letting go. / As a child I found a sparrow / Who had fallen from its nest / And I nursed it back to health / Till it was stronger than the rest / But when I tried to hold it / It would peck and scratch my chest / Till I let it go. / And I watched it fly away from me / With it’s bright and selfish song / And part of me was cursing / I had helped it grow so strong / And I feared it might go hungry / And I feared it might go wrong. / But I could not close the acorn / Once the oak began to grow / And I cannot close my heart / To what it fears and needs to know: / That the hardest part of love / Is the letting go. / And it’s only in Eden / Grows a rose without a thorn / And your children start to leave you / On the day that they are born / They will leave you there to cheer for them / They will leave you there to mourn, ever so / Like an ark on uncharted seas / Their lives will be tossed / And the deeper is your love for them / The crueler is the cost / And just when they start to find themselves / Is when you fear they’re lost. / But you cannot close the acorn / Once the oak begins to grow / And you cannot close your heart / To what it fears and needs to know: / That the hardest part of love / And the rarest part of love / And the truest part of love / Is the letting go.”
Interviewer: Okay, great. Thank you so much for sharing that. Could you describe that for me like? What what do you think Are some of the important details?
Participant: Sure. so I think I relate to it on a lot of levels. I relate to it as a child of parents who I've changed my relationship with and I relate to it as a parent of 2 children who have now become adults. I relate to it with pets. I lost one about a year ago. I have a new one. and also in my professional life. i'm an academic advisor, and so I have these very intimate conversations with college students, and I really get to know them over 4 years. and talk about their struggles and successes and all of their challenges in life. And then. if all goes well. They graduate, and I let them go, and and some of them don't graduate, and I also let those go and occasionally. Some of them really want to keep in touch and kind of maintain a friendship which means a lot, too. So I think it's it's all about having intimacy on a temporary basis, and also the health and inevitable evolution of that to possibly letting go.
Why did you choose this one? (Specialness)
Interviewer: Great. Thank you. and you already started to talk about this? A next question. But why did you choose to talk about this one for this study?
Participant: you know it's – after I did the survey. I thought, you know, well, visual art, do I have any visual art around? It really stirs emotions for me, and and I – I have emotional reactions to visual art. But I am someone who has performed musically and theatrically, and so that. somehow, you know. brings out much stronger emotions in me than then visual. Art does. so I this one just really quickly came to mind. when I thought, what – what music do you go back to? Over and over that really speaks to you. and there is orchestral music that also moves me deeply. But I think the the lyrics and this one, just you know, hit home over and over and over.
What led up to the interaction? What motivated you to explore the piece?
Interviewer: Great. Thank you. so now please tell me about the experience of interacting with this our work by answering some questions. So what led up to the interaction with this piece? What motivated you to explore it?
Participant: So I was first exposed to it when my daughter was in a community theater production of Children of Eden, which is the show that the song is part of. And so I. I attended multiple performances to see her and and she did not appear in the scene at all. But It's it's something that I learned through my parenting journey, I suppose. and I I think just recent life events. also intersect with the message of the file.
When and where did the interaction happen? Was anyone involved besides you?
Interviewer: yeah, Great, Thank you. and so you talked about this as well a little bit, but I wondered if you wanted to add anything more about when and where did this interaction happen? And who was involved besides you, if anyone.
Participant: so it occurred in a rustic community theater that used to be a barn. So I was in shows there my son was in shows. There my daughter was in shows. There I met a lot of my very closest friends through doing community theater in that facility.and also because there were lots of children in the show. There were lots of parents attending, and you know. being part of the production on the sidelines. And so I think I talked to other parents about this piece as well, and how it impacted all of us.
Interviewer: Great. Thank you. and then.
What were you thinking and feeling at different times throughout the process of interacting with the work?
Interviewer: could you talk a little bit about what you your thoughts and feelings at different times throughout the process of interacting with this piece?
Participant: so I think the best example is thinking about my son. He has a very different personality than I do. He does not talk about emotions. it's he's! He's kind of an introvert, and I know that he has lots of emotions. It's not that he doesn't feel things and react to things. It's just that he doesn't express and verbalize about those emotions. And so when he was in college during his senior year. he experienced really severe depression, and he wasn't going to class and I was so intensely worried about him, and yet the more and more I nagged and tried to micromanage him the further apart. It drove us on in some ways. And so he did survive and move on from that. And I I think my biggest fear is that I lost my brother to suicide in 2001 and I am just petrified of my son following that template, and my brother got depressed. my son got depressed, my brother took his life. What if that happened to my son? And so that experience is something that has been very scary for me. And you know the message of the song is. you know, at some point they're gonna do reckless things that have experiences that scare you and make you feel that all is lost. And yet, That is what is supposed to happen. That is how children become adults is. They hit rock bottom in some way on their own, and they find their own way out, and that if you continue to try to carry them they're not having that essential, healthy growth experience of finding their own way. and so fast forwarding. let's see my son graduated college, I think, in probably 2019. It's it's been 3 or 4 years and he's doing really well, and my relationship with him now is. you know, i'm always reminding myself, don't don't nag him, or ask for permission to nag him like I'll say, would you like. Would it be helpful if I texted you to remind you of this? And he'll usually say yes. but it's very key that I ask him first. that that he can sense to me being involved in helping and reminding. And so I think now that I've learned to let him opt in to my mothering of him as an adult, that it's become a lot healthier, and and he asks for help more readily now because he knows that it won't be forced on him.
Interviewer: Okay. yeah, yeah. Sorry to hear about your brother, and thank you so much for sharing those experiences.
Can you describe any high points, low points or challenges, or turning points along the way?
Interviewer: Would you like to talk about any high points, any other low points or challenges, or any turning points in your interaction with this piece.
Participant: yeah, I think the other thing that is triggered right now is thinking about my own parents and my father and I my my parents, divorced when I was about 10, and my father and I never had a healthy relationship. As an adult. I really had to set a lot of boundaries with him and let him go. Just say, you know this is this is how i'm living my life on my terms, and if you can't be supportive and on board of it, then No; so I really sever ties with him, and I always had a very good relationship with my mother, but she's now 82, and she's undergoing dementia, and some severe personality changes, and she's falsely accused me of things, and she's not a positive force in my life anymore. And i'm trying to do the good daughter thing, but also having to let her go in some ways. she did not interact with me on Thanksgiving. I don't think she will be part of my Christmas this year, and that's her choice. But you know thinking about how I lost my brother. I lost my dad. I'm losing my mom. Lost a PET. My son will be here for Christmas. My cat will be here for Christmas, my daughter, who is younger? She's 23 she's in Europe. And so she's going to be spending Christmas over there and not coming home for Christmas. We will certainly be in touch and do a video chat and all of that. But you know she's definitely doing all of the life, experiences and adventures that are referenced in the song. I don't feel the threat of losing her. I do wonder if she will come back to the US. Permanently ever. but I also can be happy for everything that she's experiencing independently. She's. you know. I feel like everything is. Everything's going her way. So, even though she's disconnecting from me physically and geographically. She's experiencing everything that I could have hoped in terms of her own independence and discovery of herself.
Let's talk about the impact of the artwork on you and your life
What did you learn from the process of interacting with the artwork? Did you learn anything about yourself?
Interviewer: Great so let's talk a little bit about the impact of this piece on you and your life, which I know you've been talking about? but what did you learn from the process of interacting with the artwork? Did you learn anything about yourself?
Participant: Well, I think that I will say that all of the losses that I've referred to have been for healthy and appropriate reasons. I don't– I don't– You know, I grieve for the losses. And yet I also acknowledge that they're part of life that– that I can navigate with or without these people. And you know, when one relationship ends, you can look for other relationships that are growing and appreciate new opportunities and relationships. even as old ones change and disconnect.
Do you think the artist intended to affect others or the world in any particular ways?
Interviewer: Okay, thank you. And then do you think that? this piece was intended to affect others or the world in any particular ways?
Participant: So that's an interesting question, and and also like clicks into a little bit of the things about the survey that that we haven't talked about yet, because I know there are a lot of questions about spirituality and religion and and things like that, and I feel like this whole Broadway show is an irreverent Biblical story. So it it's based on a Biblical story. But people who are very literal about the Bible would not like it, for it takes a lot of liberties with Biblical concepts, and interprets them in ways that are not always, you know, conventional. And so I guess I just find it interesting that it's trying to celebrate stories from the Bible. And yet my connection to that song has very little to do with the Biblical story that inspired it. I mean it's inspired by the story of Adam and Eve, and having to make choices about a son and and all that. And yet, you know the Bible is not something that I consider to be helpful to me in day to day life.
Interviewer: Okay.
Do you think the artist intended to affect others or the world in any particular ways?
Interviewer: And then I know You've been touching upon this question as well. But did your experience with this piece affect your understanding of others or the world?
Participant: Yes, I mean I I think You know both with my own kids and my professional relationships with students. you know, it helps me to understand that I can't prevent them failing a class. I can't prevent my son making questionable decisions at work. I can't tell my daughter that she should continue to stay in our relationship with her boyfriend, or break up with him like I can't tell people what to do. I can ask them questions that help them make their own conclusions, and that is That is what I really feel I can do, and it's It's a way of being part of their growth and independence, but also keeping them at the wheel, so to speak, and and letting them drive their own decisions.
Did you have any insights about your own authentic (or inauthentic) self?
Interviewer: Okay, thank you. and then, when some people think about themselves that they see some parts of themselves as deeply true, real, or authentic. If this idea resonates with you, did you learn anything about your true nature? During the process of interacting with this piece. Did you have any insights about your own authentic or inauthentic self?
Participant: I I think this resonates with my authentic self a whole lot. you know. Loss is hard. It it is hard, you know, and it's normal for me and healthy for me to grieve that I never had a great relationship with my dad that my relationship with my mother is not going well. and even things that work that there are always going to be hard parts, you know. Do I love my job? Sure. But does it have really really hard parts? Yes, and do I love my kids? Yes, but is watching them grow away from me. Hard. Yes, and so you know, I think authentically. I grieve, but I also try to stay in touch with the healthy aspects of that that it's it's not realistic to expect things to stay the same. or to always be rosy and easy.
Did you learn anything about ultimate meaning during the process?
Interviewer: Great, Thank you. And then, so some people believe in ultimate meaning. This is defined as deep underlying meaning that transcends subjective personal meaning.It is about the nature of existence and identity, and it may include ideas about the significance of suffering as well as spirituality. This idea resonates with you. Did you learn anything about ultimate meaning during the process of interacting with this piece.
Participant: Hmm. Everything that you just said I agreed with ultimate meaning is a a kind of hard phrase for me to wrap my head around, because meaning is very individual, and so like. What the meaning of this song is for me might be a different meaning for somebody else, and therefore ultimate is kind of a term that implies that it's universal. and I don't know that my experiences are universal. I think they're they're very close to my own personal truth. But ultimate is a a term that I that I don't really easily embrace.
Interviewer: Sure.
Perceptions of reality beyond the physical world.
Interviewer: and then, so some people believe or perceive a reality beyond the physical or material world. And this may include religious beliefs and experiences such as perceived interactions with God, but may also include mystical or transcendent experiences or interaction with spirits. Have you had any of these kinds of experiences during your interaction with this piece.
Participant: yeah, I think I definitely feel that this piece is exemplary of the human spirit that we each individual has a human spirit that transcends the physical aspects of life. for me, that's not a religious concept. but yes, I would say that when I think about my spirit during this song. You know I reflect on all the different times in my life that I've had these interactions with different people that have come and gone, and and how they have changed and impacted who I am today.
How old were you?
Interviewer: Great. Thank you. And then I just have a few quicker follow up questions. Okay. So how old were you when you interacted with this piece?
Participant: Okay. So i'm gonna say 2009. 51.
How do you perceive the quality of the piece?
Interviewer: And then how do you perceive the quality of this piece?
Participant: off the chart 100% beyond? Yeah.
Life Events
Interviewer: And then how would you like to say anything more about what was going on in your life around the time that you interacted with this piece.
Participant: Oh, okay. So at the time when I interacted with this piece I was still married. I've since divorced and I had just moved from Illinois back to Pennsylvania, and I grew up in State College, Pennsylvania, which is where I live now. I left and went to college somewhere else. When I When I graduated from high school I very much wanted to get out of town. I felt like all of my difficult history was here, and I wanted to start somewhere new with a clean slate, which I did, and so I ended up being out in the midwest for over 20 years. between going to college out there and then eventually living in the Chicago area and starting my career there. So. after living in Chicago area, my husband's job was not going well. He was frustrated with his career, and my stepfather had multiple health issues and was in decline in State college, and I just felt like I didn't understand why we were living there anymore. I did. I just was like we're stuck in traffic. We're not with the people who need us right now. You're not even happy in your job, you know. Supposedly we live here because it has more job opportunities for you. And yet you're miserable, and I just don't know why we live here. And so we really took a leap of faith and just sold our house, Move back and found our way. And this piece came about probably 2 years after that big move, and I think that move back here was a catalyst for me. reevaluating my own needs and my own goals separate from my marriage, separate from my children, and just kind of the start of me making choices for myself, and not always for other people anymore.
Interviewer: Yeah, that was great. That thank you so much.
The participant discussed their interaction with the song, “The Hardest Part of Love” from the musical, Children of Eden. They first interacted with this piece when their daughter was in a production of the play, in the same community theater that the participant once performed in. The song details how hard letting go of a loved one is, despite how necessary it is. The participant relates to this song as a child whose relationship with their parents has changed a lot throughout the years, as a parent of two children themself, as a pet owner, and as an academic advisor. In all of these roles, they have had to learn to “have intimacy with these people on a temporary basis, and then to accept the healthy and inevitable possibility of letting them go”. The song was particularly impactful for them when their son was in his senior year of college, struggling with a severe period of depression. The participant, whose brother died by suicide following a period of depression himself, worried about their son intensely, but found that their nagging only drew their son further from them. During this time, they reflected on the messages of the song: “at some point, children are going to do reckless things and have experiences that scare you, but that is what is supposed to happen; that is how children become adults”. Their relationship with their son has since improved, and they are able to communicate in a healthier way. Their daughter is also moving to a different country, and the participant is trying to be happy and supportive for her as she is “experiencing everything that they could have hoped in terms of her own independence and discovery of herself.”
The participant also reflected on their relationship with their parents. They never had a healthy relationship with their father, and had to set boundaries with him as an adult in order to live their life. Their relationship with their mother was always healthier, but as she has undergone dementia, her personality has changed a lot, and the participant has had to let go of their old relationship. The participant grieves for the losses, but acknowledges that they are a part of life. While the play is based on a Bible story, the participant’s connection to it has very little to do with the religious stories that inspired it. It helps them understand that they can’t protect their children from making poor decisions, or prevent their students from failing a class; all they can do is ask them questions and help them come to their own conclusions. The song resonates with their authentic self because while loss is hard, it is normal and healthy, and it is not realistic to expect things to stay the same, or be easy all the time.
Interview Transcript
Introduction
Interviewer: Okay, so we'd like you to focus on your interaction with a a particular artwork that someone else created. I I know that you've already chosen your artwork, so we'll be talking about that. And I just wanted to let you know before get into any of the questions that i'll be reading mostly from a script I do to the research methods. That's not that. You know we're not interested or engaged with what you're saying, but just due to the methods of the study. I I'll be reading from the script. I know that you have chosen your artwork.
Description
Interviewer: so you could you tell me what is it?
Participant: The artwork is a song from a musical and the title is The Hardest Part of Love. And so I do have for reference a Youtube video recording of it. it's something that I was exposed to maybe 15 years ago. Now that seems like a really long time, but it it probably was close to that. And it's just something that whenever I return to it. it makes me cry. It just really moves me emotionally every time that I hear it.
Interviewer: Great. Thank you so much. and would you? I know you said that you had the the clip. Would you mind sharing that?
Participant: Not at all. do you want me to send you the link or share my screen? I can do either one.
Interviewer: Could you actually sharing the screen, I think would be great, for now you also send me that.
Participant: Yes, I can let me just put it in the chat. Okay. Okay.
Song: “Oh, this son of mine I love so well / And ah, the toll it takes”
Interviewer: Thanks.
Song: “I’d give him a garden / and keep it clear of snakes / But the one thing he most treasures / Is to make his own mistakes. / He goes charging up the cliffs of life / A reckless mountaineer / I could help him not to stumble / I could warn him not what to fear / I could shout until I’m breathless / And he’d still refuse to hear. / But you cannot close the acorn / Once the oak begins to grow / And you cannot close your heart / To what it fears and needs to know: / That the hardest part of love / Is the letting go. / As a child I found a sparrow / Who had fallen from its nest / And I nursed it back to health / Till it was stronger than the rest / But when I tried to hold it / It would peck and scratch my chest / Till I let it go. / And I watched it fly away from me / With it’s bright and selfish song / And part of me was cursing / I had helped it grow so strong / And I feared it might go hungry / And I feared it might go wrong. / But I could not close the acorn / Once the oak began to grow / And I cannot close my heart / To what it fears and needs to know: / That the hardest part of love / Is the letting go. / And it’s only in Eden / Grows a rose without a thorn / And your children start to leave you / On the day that they are born / They will leave you there to cheer for them / They will leave you there to mourn, ever so / Like an ark on uncharted seas / Their lives will be tossed / And the deeper is your love for them / The crueler is the cost / And just when they start to find themselves / Is when you fear they’re lost. / But you cannot close the acorn / Once the oak begins to grow / And you cannot close your heart / To what it fears and needs to know: / That the hardest part of love / And the rarest part of love / And the truest part of love / Is the letting go.”
Interviewer: Okay, great. Thank you so much for sharing that. Could you describe that for me like? What what do you think Are some of the important details?
Participant: Sure. so I think I relate to it on a lot of levels. I relate to it as a child of parents who I've changed my relationship with and I relate to it as a parent of 2 children who have now become adults. I relate to it with pets. I lost one about a year ago. I have a new one. and also in my professional life. i'm an academic advisor, and so I have these very intimate conversations with college students, and I really get to know them over 4 years. and talk about their struggles and successes and all of their challenges in life. And then. if all goes well. They graduate, and I let them go, and and some of them don't graduate, and I also let those go and occasionally. Some of them really want to keep in touch and kind of maintain a friendship which means a lot, too. So I think it's it's all about having intimacy on a temporary basis, and also the health and inevitable evolution of that to possibly letting go.
Why did you choose this one? (Specialness)
Interviewer: Great. Thank you. and you already started to talk about this? A next question. But why did you choose to talk about this one for this study?
Participant: you know it's – after I did the survey. I thought, you know, well, visual art, do I have any visual art around? It really stirs emotions for me, and and I – I have emotional reactions to visual art. But I am someone who has performed musically and theatrically, and so that. somehow, you know. brings out much stronger emotions in me than then visual. Art does. so I this one just really quickly came to mind. when I thought, what – what music do you go back to? Over and over that really speaks to you. and there is orchestral music that also moves me deeply. But I think the the lyrics and this one, just you know, hit home over and over and over.
What led up to the interaction? What motivated you to explore the piece?
Interviewer: Great. Thank you. so now please tell me about the experience of interacting with this our work by answering some questions. So what led up to the interaction with this piece? What motivated you to explore it?
Participant: So I was first exposed to it when my daughter was in a community theater production of Children of Eden, which is the show that the song is part of. And so I. I attended multiple performances to see her and and she did not appear in the scene at all. But It's it's something that I learned through my parenting journey, I suppose. and I I think just recent life events. also intersect with the message of the file.
When and where did the interaction happen? Was anyone involved besides you?
Interviewer: yeah, Great, Thank you. and so you talked about this as well a little bit, but I wondered if you wanted to add anything more about when and where did this interaction happen? And who was involved besides you, if anyone.
Participant: so it occurred in a rustic community theater that used to be a barn. So I was in shows there my son was in shows. There my daughter was in shows. There I met a lot of my very closest friends through doing community theater in that facility.and also because there were lots of children in the show. There were lots of parents attending, and you know. being part of the production on the sidelines. And so I think I talked to other parents about this piece as well, and how it impacted all of us.
Interviewer: Great. Thank you. and then.
What were you thinking and feeling at different times throughout the process of interacting with the work?
Interviewer: could you talk a little bit about what you your thoughts and feelings at different times throughout the process of interacting with this piece?
Participant: so I think the best example is thinking about my son. He has a very different personality than I do. He does not talk about emotions. it's he's! He's kind of an introvert, and I know that he has lots of emotions. It's not that he doesn't feel things and react to things. It's just that he doesn't express and verbalize about those emotions. And so when he was in college during his senior year. he experienced really severe depression, and he wasn't going to class and I was so intensely worried about him, and yet the more and more I nagged and tried to micromanage him the further apart. It drove us on in some ways. And so he did survive and move on from that. And I I think my biggest fear is that I lost my brother to suicide in 2001 and I am just petrified of my son following that template, and my brother got depressed. my son got depressed, my brother took his life. What if that happened to my son? And so that experience is something that has been very scary for me. And you know the message of the song is. you know, at some point they're gonna do reckless things that have experiences that scare you and make you feel that all is lost. And yet, That is what is supposed to happen. That is how children become adults is. They hit rock bottom in some way on their own, and they find their own way out, and that if you continue to try to carry them they're not having that essential, healthy growth experience of finding their own way. and so fast forwarding. let's see my son graduated college, I think, in probably 2019. It's it's been 3 or 4 years and he's doing really well, and my relationship with him now is. you know, i'm always reminding myself, don't don't nag him, or ask for permission to nag him like I'll say, would you like. Would it be helpful if I texted you to remind you of this? And he'll usually say yes. but it's very key that I ask him first. that that he can sense to me being involved in helping and reminding. And so I think now that I've learned to let him opt in to my mothering of him as an adult, that it's become a lot healthier, and and he asks for help more readily now because he knows that it won't be forced on him.
Interviewer: Okay. yeah, yeah. Sorry to hear about your brother, and thank you so much for sharing those experiences.
Can you describe any high points, low points or challenges, or turning points along the way?
Interviewer: Would you like to talk about any high points, any other low points or challenges, or any turning points in your interaction with this piece.
Participant: yeah, I think the other thing that is triggered right now is thinking about my own parents and my father and I my my parents, divorced when I was about 10, and my father and I never had a healthy relationship. As an adult. I really had to set a lot of boundaries with him and let him go. Just say, you know this is this is how i'm living my life on my terms, and if you can't be supportive and on board of it, then No; so I really sever ties with him, and I always had a very good relationship with my mother, but she's now 82, and she's undergoing dementia, and some severe personality changes, and she's falsely accused me of things, and she's not a positive force in my life anymore. And i'm trying to do the good daughter thing, but also having to let her go in some ways. she did not interact with me on Thanksgiving. I don't think she will be part of my Christmas this year, and that's her choice. But you know thinking about how I lost my brother. I lost my dad. I'm losing my mom. Lost a PET. My son will be here for Christmas. My cat will be here for Christmas, my daughter, who is younger? She's 23 she's in Europe. And so she's going to be spending Christmas over there and not coming home for Christmas. We will certainly be in touch and do a video chat and all of that. But you know she's definitely doing all of the life, experiences and adventures that are referenced in the song. I don't feel the threat of losing her. I do wonder if she will come back to the US. Permanently ever. but I also can be happy for everything that she's experiencing independently. She's. you know. I feel like everything is. Everything's going her way. So, even though she's disconnecting from me physically and geographically. She's experiencing everything that I could have hoped in terms of her own independence and discovery of herself.
Let's talk about the impact of the artwork on you and your life
What did you learn from the process of interacting with the artwork? Did you learn anything about yourself?
Interviewer: Great so let's talk a little bit about the impact of this piece on you and your life, which I know you've been talking about? but what did you learn from the process of interacting with the artwork? Did you learn anything about yourself?
Participant: Well, I think that I will say that all of the losses that I've referred to have been for healthy and appropriate reasons. I don't– I don't– You know, I grieve for the losses. And yet I also acknowledge that they're part of life that– that I can navigate with or without these people. And you know, when one relationship ends, you can look for other relationships that are growing and appreciate new opportunities and relationships. even as old ones change and disconnect.
Do you think the artist intended to affect others or the world in any particular ways?
Interviewer: Okay, thank you. And then do you think that? this piece was intended to affect others or the world in any particular ways?
Participant: So that's an interesting question, and and also like clicks into a little bit of the things about the survey that that we haven't talked about yet, because I know there are a lot of questions about spirituality and religion and and things like that, and I feel like this whole Broadway show is an irreverent Biblical story. So it it's based on a Biblical story. But people who are very literal about the Bible would not like it, for it takes a lot of liberties with Biblical concepts, and interprets them in ways that are not always, you know, conventional. And so I guess I just find it interesting that it's trying to celebrate stories from the Bible. And yet my connection to that song has very little to do with the Biblical story that inspired it. I mean it's inspired by the story of Adam and Eve, and having to make choices about a son and and all that. And yet, you know the Bible is not something that I consider to be helpful to me in day to day life.
Interviewer: Okay.
Do you think the artist intended to affect others or the world in any particular ways?
Interviewer: And then I know You've been touching upon this question as well. But did your experience with this piece affect your understanding of others or the world?
Participant: Yes, I mean I I think You know both with my own kids and my professional relationships with students. you know, it helps me to understand that I can't prevent them failing a class. I can't prevent my son making questionable decisions at work. I can't tell my daughter that she should continue to stay in our relationship with her boyfriend, or break up with him like I can't tell people what to do. I can ask them questions that help them make their own conclusions, and that is That is what I really feel I can do, and it's It's a way of being part of their growth and independence, but also keeping them at the wheel, so to speak, and and letting them drive their own decisions.
Did you have any insights about your own authentic (or inauthentic) self?
Interviewer: Okay, thank you. and then, when some people think about themselves that they see some parts of themselves as deeply true, real, or authentic. If this idea resonates with you, did you learn anything about your true nature? During the process of interacting with this piece. Did you have any insights about your own authentic or inauthentic self?
Participant: I I think this resonates with my authentic self a whole lot. you know. Loss is hard. It it is hard, you know, and it's normal for me and healthy for me to grieve that I never had a great relationship with my dad that my relationship with my mother is not going well. and even things that work that there are always going to be hard parts, you know. Do I love my job? Sure. But does it have really really hard parts? Yes, and do I love my kids? Yes, but is watching them grow away from me. Hard. Yes, and so you know, I think authentically. I grieve, but I also try to stay in touch with the healthy aspects of that that it's it's not realistic to expect things to stay the same. or to always be rosy and easy.
Did you learn anything about ultimate meaning during the process?
Interviewer: Great, Thank you. And then, so some people believe in ultimate meaning. This is defined as deep underlying meaning that transcends subjective personal meaning.It is about the nature of existence and identity, and it may include ideas about the significance of suffering as well as spirituality. This idea resonates with you. Did you learn anything about ultimate meaning during the process of interacting with this piece.
Participant: Hmm. Everything that you just said I agreed with ultimate meaning is a a kind of hard phrase for me to wrap my head around, because meaning is very individual, and so like. What the meaning of this song is for me might be a different meaning for somebody else, and therefore ultimate is kind of a term that implies that it's universal. and I don't know that my experiences are universal. I think they're they're very close to my own personal truth. But ultimate is a a term that I that I don't really easily embrace.
Interviewer: Sure.
Perceptions of reality beyond the physical world.
Interviewer: and then, so some people believe or perceive a reality beyond the physical or material world. And this may include religious beliefs and experiences such as perceived interactions with God, but may also include mystical or transcendent experiences or interaction with spirits. Have you had any of these kinds of experiences during your interaction with this piece.
Participant: yeah, I think I definitely feel that this piece is exemplary of the human spirit that we each individual has a human spirit that transcends the physical aspects of life. for me, that's not a religious concept. but yes, I would say that when I think about my spirit during this song. You know I reflect on all the different times in my life that I've had these interactions with different people that have come and gone, and and how they have changed and impacted who I am today.
How old were you?
Interviewer: Great. Thank you. And then I just have a few quicker follow up questions. Okay. So how old were you when you interacted with this piece?
Participant: Okay. So i'm gonna say 2009. 51.
How do you perceive the quality of the piece?
Interviewer: And then how do you perceive the quality of this piece?
Participant: off the chart 100% beyond? Yeah.
Life Events
Interviewer: And then how would you like to say anything more about what was going on in your life around the time that you interacted with this piece.
Participant: Oh, okay. So at the time when I interacted with this piece I was still married. I've since divorced and I had just moved from Illinois back to Pennsylvania, and I grew up in State College, Pennsylvania, which is where I live now. I left and went to college somewhere else. When I When I graduated from high school I very much wanted to get out of town. I felt like all of my difficult history was here, and I wanted to start somewhere new with a clean slate, which I did, and so I ended up being out in the midwest for over 20 years. between going to college out there and then eventually living in the Chicago area and starting my career there. So. after living in Chicago area, my husband's job was not going well. He was frustrated with his career, and my stepfather had multiple health issues and was in decline in State college, and I just felt like I didn't understand why we were living there anymore. I did. I just was like we're stuck in traffic. We're not with the people who need us right now. You're not even happy in your job, you know. Supposedly we live here because it has more job opportunities for you. And yet you're miserable, and I just don't know why we live here. And so we really took a leap of faith and just sold our house, Move back and found our way. And this piece came about probably 2 years after that big move, and I think that move back here was a catalyst for me. reevaluating my own needs and my own goals separate from my marriage, separate from my children, and just kind of the start of me making choices for myself, and not always for other people anymore.
Interviewer: Yeah, that was great. That thank you so much.
Proudly powered by Weebly