Will Anderson discussed creating the painting, The Ghost, shown below.
Interview Summary
This participant has selected an artwork, initially titled Marshall Gorky, now changed to The Ghost. The painting was on untreated canvas showing raw brushstrokes. When they were stationed in Sicily in the Navy, a wind blew out the candles they were using as light painting and were freaked out by the window shadowing and the radio going crazy. The experience was the last time they sensed something spiritual when dealing with artwork, so they chose to speak on this artwork specifically.
This person had practice in reading biographies and would incorporate the person into conceptual paintings. So, they had just read a story about Jackson Pollock and his interaction with Marshall Gorky. He started creating sketches on Gorky and started on the portrait that led to the previous experience.
This was at the end of 1999, living in a rental house, in a meditation and they would lose themselves while painting. The main turning point being the wind blowing, the glass breaking, the song skipping. They had a story to tell their friends which made them change the name of the painting to “The Ghost” This person had taught themselves to paint in different lightening and environments and added it to part of their painting process. People find the painting interesting when they interact with it. This painting created a sort of icebreaker they used at parties with their friend, Will and Jessica.
This person considers themselves as authentic and found they enjoy telling stories. They find that telling the same story for 23 years, he might have elevatored the story, keeping the overall gist. Their ultimate meaning is to make their time on Earth better for them and for the people they care about and interact with. This person was 24 at the time of the artwork when they were going through a breakup and found solstice in painting. They perceive the quality to be raw.
Interview Transcript
Interviewer: so, what is the artwork?
Participant 8: So, the title is Marshall Gorky, initially. I changed it to The Ghost when I gave it to my friend.
Interviewer: Okay, Great. And then could you describe it a little bit for me? so what are some of the important details?
Participant 8: So, the painting itself it was on untreated canvas. I would go to hardware stores and buy drop cloth canvases, and then I would find things that I would consider like frames or media to paint on. And so, I had a bunch of broken windows in the garbage, and I removed all the glass, and I would stretch the canvas on the back side of the frame.
So, the window frame actually was the frame of the painting. Untreated canvas is really hard to get to absorb acrylic paint like on the first stroke. And so, a lot of the brushstrokes were pretty raw. So, it was kind of a rough brushstroke. and I would
use sort of a silhouette of a picture that I had of the person. At the time it was a Saturday night, I was working on this. I was stationed in Sicily in the navy, and it was my actually my very first duty station.
And so, I rented an apartment out in this little village called Moda, and the landlady, she told me to call her Nona like, I'll be your grandma kind of thing very, very sweet family. and they lived in these apartments in this farmhouse, and it had all sorts of like opening glass doors to the front, and there was a balcony in the front, and then there was a balcony in the back.
I just I would sometimes paint by candlelight, just to sort of set the mood and see if work would look different in obscured light. And you know, in the in the daytime, you know, seeing a painting the next morning, after a painting, and you know, in the dusk or by a candlelight. It always was kind of a fun thing for me to experience.
So, at this time I’m listening to Leonard Cohen. It turns out like the wind blew straight through the window and slammed all the doors closed. And one of the doors was the door to my bedroom, and it was this wooden door, with a large window in the middle of it. The glass was frosted, and it had shattered, and all the candles that I was painting by blew out. The record or the CD started skipping and it skipped to a line from a song, that will be judged, and it sort of skipped on my name, and it was really freaky.
And I would tell stories about this farmhouse, this area, this place, and it was all it was pretty it was pretty old and had some old antique furniture and things like that from the obviously the landlady and had left some stuff in there, like some old photos and things like that it was actually a pretty big area. I had 3 bedrooms in it, and I only went into one of them, you know I never would in I never! I hardly ever went into the other rooms.
So, it was kind of like when my friends would come over and I’d be like, oh, yeah, the house is haunted, you know, kind of jokingly. And then, when that happened, I told that story at the next party I went to, and my friend Jessica said that she wanted to see the painting, so for her birthday I actually gave her that painting, but I had changed it from a portrait of Marshall Garkey to the Ghost.
Interviewer: Great. Yeah, thank you. so, you already talked about this a little bit. But why did you choose to talk about this painting for this study.
Participant 8: Well, so I have this like saying, like you know my wife, and I we, you know we would when we lived in Europe there were a lot of creepy places that we visited, and so she would say, well, you know what you don't believe in ghost, right? And I said, yeah, but that doesn't mean, I’m not afraid of them.
I'm a pretty materialist, but not materialism, as far as far as monetary, But I mean the world of materialism, philosophically. and so, whenever something sort of semi spiritual comes up, or jokingly. I always respond that.
In my old life. That would have been something that I would have, you know, responded to. That would have been something that I would have found significance in, but I think at that at that point in time in my life it was. It was a great story to tell, and as I've gotten older, I've gotten more atheistic and and but I still, you know, like I meditate for my health. I meditate for peace of mind, for my mental health. So, if you would consider that spiritual. But in that in that sense that was, I guess, like the last time that I sensed something spiritual when dealing with artwork. And that's why I chose to talk about that one specifically
Interviewer: Great. And then you already talked a little bit about this, too. But how? What led up to its creation? What motivated you to create this?
Participant 8: Well, I have a practice, or I did. At the time I had a practice of reading biographies of artists and poets and philosophers, and if they had an interesting looking face, I would incorporate them into a sort of conceptual painting. At the time I had just finished the book on Jackson Pollock. And there's a story about Jackson Pollock in a bar, as most of his stories are, and Marshall Gorky was sitting there, and he was just sort of sketching, and Jackson Pollock recognized who it was and went over and essentially threatened him and insulted him, and said he wasn’t a very good artist, and his line work was poor, and you know his color work was shoddy up, anyways so they’re both big dudes. They're both big guys are both over 6 feet tall. They were both over 200 pounds.
But Jackson Pollock was famous for starting bar fights. And Marshall Gorky had always carried a pencil, and he kept a knife to sharpen his pencil all the time. And so, the story goes. As Jackson Pollock got closer, Porky just pulled out his pencil sharpener, and just stuck it, you know, in in in Jackson Pollock's chest.
He told him to mind his own business kind of thing, and Jackson Pollock's like, hey? I like this guy. I'll buy him a drink, you know and so I was like Well, I got to go look up, find out who this Marshall Gorky guy is right, and so I read his biography.
I thought he had a really interesting looking face, and so I started doing sketches of him, and then I was then that night you know it was kind of an eerie dusk time, you know it was. It was like autumn. I kind of wanted to capture this portrait that I had I had of him. This is what I've been working on.
Interviewer: And then you've touched on these questions a little bit as well. But I wonder if you wanted to say anything more about when and where the work happened, and what you were thinking and feeling at different times when you were working on the art.
Participant 8: I think I think the when and where obviously it was the bottom of 1999 and it was in my rental house in Sicily, which kind of adds to the ambiance. It was kind of this antique area.
And initially, I like to set up the area and that kind is part of my meditation because practicing active mindful stillness meditation was the closest thing that I had to that type of activity was what I would paint, and I would lose myself, and you know, sort of forget the world around me.
It actually that wind blowing and slamming everything sort of got me like snapped me out of that meditation. I couldn't tell you exactly what I was what I was thinking while I was painting but it's always it's always a very rewarding and really enjoyable when I paint.
Interviewer: And then would you like to talk about any high points, low points, or challenges, or turning points in the creation of this painting?
Participant 8: I think the main turning point is the experience of the wind blowing, the glass breaking in a song, skipping, and thinking to myself like, and I immediately ran and turned on all the lights in the house, you know. I didn't go back to painting
all the lights, like all the candles, went out, and everything.
The other turning point, I think, is what I told the story when I told that this story. It got a really good reception with my friends, who thought it was kind of cool, because they had heard stories about my house being haunted prior and all this other fun stuff.
My friend Jessica had asked to see the painting, I knew I had to change the name of the painting then. So, it took on a whole new life of itself.
Interviewer: Yeah, and let's talk a little bit about the impact of the art on yourself and others. So, what did you learn from the process of creating this artwork? Did you learn anything about yourself?
Participant 8: Well, I kind of knew already that I like to paint in odd lighting. And just so, I could see the painting in other light. To see if I’m satisfied with this part. I'm going to leave it alone. And then you I wait a day and I wake up the next morning. And I may consider changing it or adding something to it. in a different in a different light.
And so, refining was part of my process, was painting in different environments where the finished work would look different at different times than when I had initially finished it. So, I think getting that part of the process what something I don’t know if you learned about or I had taught myself, but it's not. It's something I still do to this day. I'll paint outside at night. I'll bring my painting, and inside in the garage and leave it there and then. The next morning I’ll open the garage door and let all the sun in and see the painting. Then kind of thing. So, I guess that's something I taught myself during that process.
Interviewer: And then. How did other people receive the artwork or react to it? And then did you intend for it to affect others or the world in any particular ways.
Participant 8: Well, I think as much as the work itself. It's. It's sort of like the painting, in Dorian Grays in a picture of Dorian Gray. It isn't the focus of the story, but the story almost made the picture, and so other people love to like if they would, they might look at that painting and go. Oh, that's interesting. It's on it's on raw canvas. Not all the paint is well absorbed. It's not well balanced. It's on a broken window frame. Why do you have this in your house? I'm imagining you know, and at the time we were all my myself and my friends. We were new in the navy, and so we were young and not making a lot of money. But we were living in life because the Government had said, we’re sending you to Italy for 2 years. You'd have to work, but you'll get a paycheck, and you'll be able to live among Italians for 2 you know, like. So, the group that experiences that type of thing you know, at a pretty young age. We have all these great stories to tell, and I think that in my circle, though those were the types of things that my art had sort of brought to that. The dynamic sort of our friendship and so yeah. I did intend it for people to see and see that it was a little bit creepy. It was pretty raw and then they have it go along with that story. I don't know if I didn't have that story, I don't know if it would still be like sitting in my storage as one of the paintings that nobody wanted, you know, because it was pretty raw.
Interviewer: And then did your experience affect your understanding of other people or of the world?
Participant 8: Well, actually, yeah. So, there were a bunch of people who had asked after hearing the story. But I had already promised it to Jessica. And so, then she started telling a story at parties, where she would meet people who didn’t know me and she’d day, Oh I have! And this is my friend Will, and she would tell the story, whatever. It acted like coffee table talk at a party, an icebreaker.
Interviewer: Great So, the next few prompts are a little bit longer.
So, when some people think about themselves. They see some parts of themselves as deeply true, real, or authentic. If this idea resonates with you, did you learn anything about your true nature during the process of creating this our work. Did you have any insights about your own authentic or inauthentic self?
Participant 8: Well, I think I do like to consider myself authentic, but I do find that I enjoy telling stories.
And so, has the story maybe changed in the last 23 years to be like to fit the form of this being a ghost, you know, blowing out the candles and sweeping, you know, like you know some of the some of the things like how dark it was, or you know you know I mean a glass window did break, you know. But the story gets better the more I tell it. So, is it 100% true?
The gist of it is. but there, there may be a little bit of elaboration on certain things, but I think that I think one of the things that I’ve, and it isn't directly tied to this. You know this and other experiences that you know, as genuine as I am. I do like to make sure that the story is well told, and so maybe sometimes the stories aren't exactly as they appeared.
That’s sort of a fun, maybe innocent way of being inauthentic. In my in my life now, in my second career, I have to be authentic. I have to prove and show the evidence, I have to tell people the truth, and oftentimes very difficult truths. I have to be empathetic with them. And so, I try to ensure that I am authentic in my interactions with my patients
Interviewer: Sure. And then some people believe in ultimate meaning that this is defined as deep underlying meaning that transcends subjective personal meaning. It is about the nature of existence and identity, and it may include ideas about the significance of suffering as well as spirituality.
If this idea resonates with you. Did you learn anything about ultimate meaning during the creation of this our work?
Participant 8: To be honest, I don’t believe that this world is all there is, and so my ultimate meaning is to make this hopefully 80 years that I’m going to be on this earth better for myself. The people that I care about, and anyone that I interact with. I don’t know if that transcends subjective meaning, but this is my worldview.
Interviewer: Great. So, the next question is more about perceptions of a reality beyond the physical or material. So, I know you said that you don't believe in the beyond and the physical and material. But even if you don't believe in something beyond the physical you may have felt some sort of inspiration or guidance, or encouragement, or a sense of presence or connection during the process of creating this artwork. So. Yeah, I was just wondering. Did you have an experience like that?
Participant 8: Well, I think that it kind of gets to the crux of what I say like, I don't believe in ghosts, but I’m afraid of them in in dark houses that, like, for whatever reason, it's the same reason. I know a scary movie is a scary movie. There is something that is you know, a sense of the transcendent right? There's a sense of there being. You know me being in that in that moment that causes a physical reaction in me, that you know. I guess you know if some people say well, I get physical reactions when I pray and I’m not native to that. The world of religion and spirituality. I did. I did study to be a priest for Almost 3 years prior to joining the navy, before I had a change of heart, so to speak. in my worldview. So, I understand that sensation. I think because at the time when I would have those sensations, I would feel a certain way that I would perceive as divine or transcendent, and I’ll be honest with you when I go into when I go into these old churches or monasteries, and I hear chants, I still get that feeling. I just don't ascribe it to anything divine.
Interviewer: Right, thank you. And then I just have a few shorter follow up questions. So, I think you may have mentioned this. But how old were you when you created this?
Participant 8: I was 24
Interviewer: And then how do you perceive the quality of work?
Participant 8: I think it was pretty raw. I think I wanted to part of it was, you know. I wanted to kind of capture that moment that that that sort of crazy experience happened, and so I didn't do much work on the on, the painting itself. Afterwards I did paint the frame again. But it was what I would have considered sort of an unfinished work.
I liked the story that came from behind the product. So, yeah, I think I would call that I would call it raw.
Interviewer: And then you've talked quite a bit about this question. But I wondered if you wanted to say anything more about what was going on in your life around the time that you created this, your work.
Participant 8: Where I was, and where my life was as far as my career and things like that. I talked about that. But honestly, I just gotten through a difficult break up in a relationship, which is why, on a Saturday night I was painting instead of instead of going out with my friends. I found a sort of solace in you know, just being alone and painting. Getting into that meditative head space that go into when I paint.
Interviewer: Okay, yeah, that was great. Thank you so much.
This participant has selected an artwork, initially titled Marshall Gorky, now changed to The Ghost. The painting was on untreated canvas showing raw brushstrokes. When they were stationed in Sicily in the Navy, a wind blew out the candles they were using as light painting and were freaked out by the window shadowing and the radio going crazy. The experience was the last time they sensed something spiritual when dealing with artwork, so they chose to speak on this artwork specifically.
This person had practice in reading biographies and would incorporate the person into conceptual paintings. So, they had just read a story about Jackson Pollock and his interaction with Marshall Gorky. He started creating sketches on Gorky and started on the portrait that led to the previous experience.
This was at the end of 1999, living in a rental house, in a meditation and they would lose themselves while painting. The main turning point being the wind blowing, the glass breaking, the song skipping. They had a story to tell their friends which made them change the name of the painting to “The Ghost” This person had taught themselves to paint in different lightening and environments and added it to part of their painting process. People find the painting interesting when they interact with it. This painting created a sort of icebreaker they used at parties with their friend, Will and Jessica.
This person considers themselves as authentic and found they enjoy telling stories. They find that telling the same story for 23 years, he might have elevatored the story, keeping the overall gist. Their ultimate meaning is to make their time on Earth better for them and for the people they care about and interact with. This person was 24 at the time of the artwork when they were going through a breakup and found solstice in painting. They perceive the quality to be raw.
Interview Transcript
Interviewer: so, what is the artwork?
Participant 8: So, the title is Marshall Gorky, initially. I changed it to The Ghost when I gave it to my friend.
Interviewer: Okay, Great. And then could you describe it a little bit for me? so what are some of the important details?
Participant 8: So, the painting itself it was on untreated canvas. I would go to hardware stores and buy drop cloth canvases, and then I would find things that I would consider like frames or media to paint on. And so, I had a bunch of broken windows in the garbage, and I removed all the glass, and I would stretch the canvas on the back side of the frame.
So, the window frame actually was the frame of the painting. Untreated canvas is really hard to get to absorb acrylic paint like on the first stroke. And so, a lot of the brushstrokes were pretty raw. So, it was kind of a rough brushstroke. and I would
use sort of a silhouette of a picture that I had of the person. At the time it was a Saturday night, I was working on this. I was stationed in Sicily in the navy, and it was my actually my very first duty station.
And so, I rented an apartment out in this little village called Moda, and the landlady, she told me to call her Nona like, I'll be your grandma kind of thing very, very sweet family. and they lived in these apartments in this farmhouse, and it had all sorts of like opening glass doors to the front, and there was a balcony in the front, and then there was a balcony in the back.
I just I would sometimes paint by candlelight, just to sort of set the mood and see if work would look different in obscured light. And you know, in the in the daytime, you know, seeing a painting the next morning, after a painting, and you know, in the dusk or by a candlelight. It always was kind of a fun thing for me to experience.
So, at this time I’m listening to Leonard Cohen. It turns out like the wind blew straight through the window and slammed all the doors closed. And one of the doors was the door to my bedroom, and it was this wooden door, with a large window in the middle of it. The glass was frosted, and it had shattered, and all the candles that I was painting by blew out. The record or the CD started skipping and it skipped to a line from a song, that will be judged, and it sort of skipped on my name, and it was really freaky.
And I would tell stories about this farmhouse, this area, this place, and it was all it was pretty it was pretty old and had some old antique furniture and things like that from the obviously the landlady and had left some stuff in there, like some old photos and things like that it was actually a pretty big area. I had 3 bedrooms in it, and I only went into one of them, you know I never would in I never! I hardly ever went into the other rooms.
So, it was kind of like when my friends would come over and I’d be like, oh, yeah, the house is haunted, you know, kind of jokingly. And then, when that happened, I told that story at the next party I went to, and my friend Jessica said that she wanted to see the painting, so for her birthday I actually gave her that painting, but I had changed it from a portrait of Marshall Garkey to the Ghost.
Interviewer: Great. Yeah, thank you. so, you already talked about this a little bit. But why did you choose to talk about this painting for this study.
Participant 8: Well, so I have this like saying, like you know my wife, and I we, you know we would when we lived in Europe there were a lot of creepy places that we visited, and so she would say, well, you know what you don't believe in ghost, right? And I said, yeah, but that doesn't mean, I’m not afraid of them.
I'm a pretty materialist, but not materialism, as far as far as monetary, But I mean the world of materialism, philosophically. and so, whenever something sort of semi spiritual comes up, or jokingly. I always respond that.
In my old life. That would have been something that I would have, you know, responded to. That would have been something that I would have found significance in, but I think at that at that point in time in my life it was. It was a great story to tell, and as I've gotten older, I've gotten more atheistic and and but I still, you know, like I meditate for my health. I meditate for peace of mind, for my mental health. So, if you would consider that spiritual. But in that in that sense that was, I guess, like the last time that I sensed something spiritual when dealing with artwork. And that's why I chose to talk about that one specifically
Interviewer: Great. And then you already talked a little bit about this, too. But how? What led up to its creation? What motivated you to create this?
Participant 8: Well, I have a practice, or I did. At the time I had a practice of reading biographies of artists and poets and philosophers, and if they had an interesting looking face, I would incorporate them into a sort of conceptual painting. At the time I had just finished the book on Jackson Pollock. And there's a story about Jackson Pollock in a bar, as most of his stories are, and Marshall Gorky was sitting there, and he was just sort of sketching, and Jackson Pollock recognized who it was and went over and essentially threatened him and insulted him, and said he wasn’t a very good artist, and his line work was poor, and you know his color work was shoddy up, anyways so they’re both big dudes. They're both big guys are both over 6 feet tall. They were both over 200 pounds.
But Jackson Pollock was famous for starting bar fights. And Marshall Gorky had always carried a pencil, and he kept a knife to sharpen his pencil all the time. And so, the story goes. As Jackson Pollock got closer, Porky just pulled out his pencil sharpener, and just stuck it, you know, in in in Jackson Pollock's chest.
He told him to mind his own business kind of thing, and Jackson Pollock's like, hey? I like this guy. I'll buy him a drink, you know and so I was like Well, I got to go look up, find out who this Marshall Gorky guy is right, and so I read his biography.
I thought he had a really interesting looking face, and so I started doing sketches of him, and then I was then that night you know it was kind of an eerie dusk time, you know it was. It was like autumn. I kind of wanted to capture this portrait that I had I had of him. This is what I've been working on.
Interviewer: And then you've touched on these questions a little bit as well. But I wonder if you wanted to say anything more about when and where the work happened, and what you were thinking and feeling at different times when you were working on the art.
Participant 8: I think I think the when and where obviously it was the bottom of 1999 and it was in my rental house in Sicily, which kind of adds to the ambiance. It was kind of this antique area.
And initially, I like to set up the area and that kind is part of my meditation because practicing active mindful stillness meditation was the closest thing that I had to that type of activity was what I would paint, and I would lose myself, and you know, sort of forget the world around me.
It actually that wind blowing and slamming everything sort of got me like snapped me out of that meditation. I couldn't tell you exactly what I was what I was thinking while I was painting but it's always it's always a very rewarding and really enjoyable when I paint.
Interviewer: And then would you like to talk about any high points, low points, or challenges, or turning points in the creation of this painting?
Participant 8: I think the main turning point is the experience of the wind blowing, the glass breaking in a song, skipping, and thinking to myself like, and I immediately ran and turned on all the lights in the house, you know. I didn't go back to painting
all the lights, like all the candles, went out, and everything.
The other turning point, I think, is what I told the story when I told that this story. It got a really good reception with my friends, who thought it was kind of cool, because they had heard stories about my house being haunted prior and all this other fun stuff.
My friend Jessica had asked to see the painting, I knew I had to change the name of the painting then. So, it took on a whole new life of itself.
Interviewer: Yeah, and let's talk a little bit about the impact of the art on yourself and others. So, what did you learn from the process of creating this artwork? Did you learn anything about yourself?
Participant 8: Well, I kind of knew already that I like to paint in odd lighting. And just so, I could see the painting in other light. To see if I’m satisfied with this part. I'm going to leave it alone. And then you I wait a day and I wake up the next morning. And I may consider changing it or adding something to it. in a different in a different light.
And so, refining was part of my process, was painting in different environments where the finished work would look different at different times than when I had initially finished it. So, I think getting that part of the process what something I don’t know if you learned about or I had taught myself, but it's not. It's something I still do to this day. I'll paint outside at night. I'll bring my painting, and inside in the garage and leave it there and then. The next morning I’ll open the garage door and let all the sun in and see the painting. Then kind of thing. So, I guess that's something I taught myself during that process.
Interviewer: And then. How did other people receive the artwork or react to it? And then did you intend for it to affect others or the world in any particular ways.
Participant 8: Well, I think as much as the work itself. It's. It's sort of like the painting, in Dorian Grays in a picture of Dorian Gray. It isn't the focus of the story, but the story almost made the picture, and so other people love to like if they would, they might look at that painting and go. Oh, that's interesting. It's on it's on raw canvas. Not all the paint is well absorbed. It's not well balanced. It's on a broken window frame. Why do you have this in your house? I'm imagining you know, and at the time we were all my myself and my friends. We were new in the navy, and so we were young and not making a lot of money. But we were living in life because the Government had said, we’re sending you to Italy for 2 years. You'd have to work, but you'll get a paycheck, and you'll be able to live among Italians for 2 you know, like. So, the group that experiences that type of thing you know, at a pretty young age. We have all these great stories to tell, and I think that in my circle, though those were the types of things that my art had sort of brought to that. The dynamic sort of our friendship and so yeah. I did intend it for people to see and see that it was a little bit creepy. It was pretty raw and then they have it go along with that story. I don't know if I didn't have that story, I don't know if it would still be like sitting in my storage as one of the paintings that nobody wanted, you know, because it was pretty raw.
Interviewer: And then did your experience affect your understanding of other people or of the world?
Participant 8: Well, actually, yeah. So, there were a bunch of people who had asked after hearing the story. But I had already promised it to Jessica. And so, then she started telling a story at parties, where she would meet people who didn’t know me and she’d day, Oh I have! And this is my friend Will, and she would tell the story, whatever. It acted like coffee table talk at a party, an icebreaker.
Interviewer: Great So, the next few prompts are a little bit longer.
So, when some people think about themselves. They see some parts of themselves as deeply true, real, or authentic. If this idea resonates with you, did you learn anything about your true nature during the process of creating this our work. Did you have any insights about your own authentic or inauthentic self?
Participant 8: Well, I think I do like to consider myself authentic, but I do find that I enjoy telling stories.
And so, has the story maybe changed in the last 23 years to be like to fit the form of this being a ghost, you know, blowing out the candles and sweeping, you know, like you know some of the some of the things like how dark it was, or you know you know I mean a glass window did break, you know. But the story gets better the more I tell it. So, is it 100% true?
The gist of it is. but there, there may be a little bit of elaboration on certain things, but I think that I think one of the things that I’ve, and it isn't directly tied to this. You know this and other experiences that you know, as genuine as I am. I do like to make sure that the story is well told, and so maybe sometimes the stories aren't exactly as they appeared.
That’s sort of a fun, maybe innocent way of being inauthentic. In my in my life now, in my second career, I have to be authentic. I have to prove and show the evidence, I have to tell people the truth, and oftentimes very difficult truths. I have to be empathetic with them. And so, I try to ensure that I am authentic in my interactions with my patients
Interviewer: Sure. And then some people believe in ultimate meaning that this is defined as deep underlying meaning that transcends subjective personal meaning. It is about the nature of existence and identity, and it may include ideas about the significance of suffering as well as spirituality.
If this idea resonates with you. Did you learn anything about ultimate meaning during the creation of this our work?
Participant 8: To be honest, I don’t believe that this world is all there is, and so my ultimate meaning is to make this hopefully 80 years that I’m going to be on this earth better for myself. The people that I care about, and anyone that I interact with. I don’t know if that transcends subjective meaning, but this is my worldview.
Interviewer: Great. So, the next question is more about perceptions of a reality beyond the physical or material. So, I know you said that you don't believe in the beyond and the physical and material. But even if you don't believe in something beyond the physical you may have felt some sort of inspiration or guidance, or encouragement, or a sense of presence or connection during the process of creating this artwork. So. Yeah, I was just wondering. Did you have an experience like that?
Participant 8: Well, I think that it kind of gets to the crux of what I say like, I don't believe in ghosts, but I’m afraid of them in in dark houses that, like, for whatever reason, it's the same reason. I know a scary movie is a scary movie. There is something that is you know, a sense of the transcendent right? There's a sense of there being. You know me being in that in that moment that causes a physical reaction in me, that you know. I guess you know if some people say well, I get physical reactions when I pray and I’m not native to that. The world of religion and spirituality. I did. I did study to be a priest for Almost 3 years prior to joining the navy, before I had a change of heart, so to speak. in my worldview. So, I understand that sensation. I think because at the time when I would have those sensations, I would feel a certain way that I would perceive as divine or transcendent, and I’ll be honest with you when I go into when I go into these old churches or monasteries, and I hear chants, I still get that feeling. I just don't ascribe it to anything divine.
Interviewer: Right, thank you. And then I just have a few shorter follow up questions. So, I think you may have mentioned this. But how old were you when you created this?
Participant 8: I was 24
Interviewer: And then how do you perceive the quality of work?
Participant 8: I think it was pretty raw. I think I wanted to part of it was, you know. I wanted to kind of capture that moment that that that sort of crazy experience happened, and so I didn't do much work on the on, the painting itself. Afterwards I did paint the frame again. But it was what I would have considered sort of an unfinished work.
I liked the story that came from behind the product. So, yeah, I think I would call that I would call it raw.
Interviewer: And then you've talked quite a bit about this question. But I wondered if you wanted to say anything more about what was going on in your life around the time that you created this, your work.
Participant 8: Where I was, and where my life was as far as my career and things like that. I talked about that. But honestly, I just gotten through a difficult break up in a relationship, which is why, on a Saturday night I was painting instead of instead of going out with my friends. I found a sort of solace in you know, just being alone and painting. Getting into that meditative head space that go into when I paint.
Interviewer: Okay, yeah, that was great. Thank you so much.